Public sentiment is intensely polarized, with many expressing strong support for either India or Pakistan. Indian commenters assert military readiness and patriotic fervor, advocating for action against perceived threats from Pakistan. Conversely, Pakistani commenters emphasize their right to defend themselves, critiquing Indian media portrayals and asserting military strength. Amidst dominant nationalist sentiments, there are voices advocating for peace from both sides, highlighting the complex emotions tied to the ongoing tensions.

India

Pakistan

For all the DCS nerds, this should be a lesson that real life is far from even the most “accurate” sim and that you can’t push for the dogfight because long range BVR missiles will eat you alive.

Likewise, another lesson we’ve been reminded of is that high quality weapons and technology can only get you so far. I don’t believe India’s shortfalls were in inferior aircraft and AA systems, but rather poor battle planning. I know the Meteor is a seriously dangerous missile and IAF has them for their rafales, but neither side has provided any evidence that meteors were fired. 

My laymans theory is that India wasn’t planning on such a large and effective wave of interceptors and hoped widespread strike aircraft would overwhelm their defenses and eliminate the need for fighter cover.

Environmental-Rub933

I think the layman takeaway is that comparing fighters, missiles, drones, and radars is ultimately a  naive consumerist approach to military strategy that overlooks far more important factors such as the strategic objectives of the nations involved, the training of their personnel, and the potential outcomes if they achieve or fail to achieve their objectives.

From my western perspective, the big India Pakistan Showdown of 2025 was like watching two teenagers try to figure out third base from the front of a Nissan Sentra , as described in various different texts from friends of either of the participants, or strangers that weren’t even there.

I think most militaries appreciate the lethality of even outdated platforms, and for anyone to write off Chinese, French, Russian, Pakistani, Indian military equipment based on a limited conflict, would be less useful than treating it as a datapoint closely tied to the conflict itself.

ColHRFrumpypants

Gen 4 is inferior no matter how many pluses or decimals you put on them. Good radar and missiles will kill them 150km+ away.

If you are US ally then get F-35 otherwise buy J-35. This is for major powers, poor nations should probably stick with Gen 4.

Suspicious_Loads

I would like to point out that there is a large amount of Russian gear on the Indian side and a lot of Western gear on the Pakistani side. For instance Pakistan AEW was the SAAB 2000 and GCI has many TPS-77 family of radars a Lockheed product. India had S300 and S400 and also P700 based BrahMos which was abot their most effective tool.

So it isn't just China v West as many think.

That said some things.

1. For Europeans, its very disheartening that the Rafale, pretty much the premier Euro fighter aircraft got shot down by what is Chinas 4 or 5th best\* plane. And not just shot donw, shot down, when SPECTRA was engaged, at *very* long range (almost 200 km) and at low altitude, it should have been simple to survive, but it didn't. Europe missed the fifth gen boat, it has to hit the 6 gen one,

2. BVR is not the future, it is the now. Lots of BVR kills in Ukraine, the 2019 Indo-Pak clashes also saw kills at BVR ranges. Ditto datalinks.

3. If you lose EW war you lose the whole thing. Indians despite having a lot of very good plattforms on paper, weren't able to get a single effective shot out, not this time nor in 2019. Sine PAF  EW was superb. 

4. Training, realistic training is essential. There is a very good video by a French Eternand and Rafale piloyt whom pointed out the PAF has been having multoi national and bilateral exersizes for a decade now. Shaheen series with China, Indus Shield with ME and Gulf states. 

5. Lots of unknowables (though I suspect the intel agencies do know them).There is a lot of gaps in knowing the true capabilities of the J10C and JF17 BLKIII. There have been some statements from PAF pver the past few years that these aircraft have a lot of AI built in. But thats about all, how much, to what extent is unknown.

\*CAC-Chengdu insist the J10C is behind only the J20 in capability, we do know that J10C had lts of the technology developed for J20, the HUD and HMD are two things which have been revealed, but there might be others. OTH this may be a snipe at Shenyang.

aaronupright

Absolutely, the 2025 IAF–PAF exchange was a watershed moment, especially from an air combat learning perspective. What stands out most is how a smaller air force with fewer resources leveraged doctrine, integration, and precision to dominate a technically larger adversary. This wasn’t just about a Rafale getting shot down,  though that’s huge on its own. It was also about how Mirage 2000, MiG-29, and likely even a Su-30MKI were neutralized in a BVR environment without a single successful missile release from the Indian side. That’s tactical control of the battlespace.

Western analysts should be paying very close attention to how the PAF employed a networked air doctrine: J-10Cs/JF17's with PL-15s, coordinated with AWACS, electronic warfare, and secure datalinks (Link-17) to create a kill box. Even a platform like the JF-17 which on paper might seem inferior to a Rafale or Su-30MKI becomes deadly when plugged into a well-drilled, real-time combat network. With that kind of ecosystem, it’s not far-fetched to say a JF-17 can go mano a mano with a Rafale.

The old thinking, that Chinese systems are just “bad copies”, doesn’t hold anymore. These platforms may not look revolutionary on paper, but in execution, they’re lethal, agile, and integrated. This conflict showed that superiority isn’t just about hardware; it’s about how you use it. The IAF had excellent aircraft, but they weren’t able to operate in contested airspace. That’s the headline.

[deleted]

How important getting the first shot in an air battle is.
Stealth aircrafts are as lethal as they are because they always have the advantage of the first shot against non stealth aircrafts.
Iaf was told not to fire at millitary assets and judging by the wreckage Rafales for some reason did not carry meteor missiles and multiple pl15s were fired at each aircraft.
If you have multiple aesa guided missiles fired at you one by one you are toast, no matter the aircraft, even an F35 would have struggled in that scenario.
Also Iaf planes seems to have got hit not far from their respective air bases ,so my hunch is the Iaf planes were preparing to land and paf planes held their missiles for a while to give them a false sense of security and then when the time came paf went for the lock and launched missiles one by one.

Zealousideal_Rock984

I agree that Chinese equipment was underrated. Much like Chinese cars once were, but no more. Especially their J-10's have showcased their ability. Bangladesh Air force is now looking to purchase J-10's. Indonesian Air Force have apparently cancelled or put their Rafale orders on hold.

What can be learned here is that China is the new Russia in the east or even better. Atleast as far as fighter jets are concerned. 

Although I still believe, there has never been a better fighter jet made than the F-22. Nothing comes close yet.
Wonder if US will eventually market the F-22's at some point in the future

phoeebsy

Is there anything to learn ? I mean fundamentally . Even though the details aren't known , a quick recollection of possible events would show that what happened wasn't anything really radical nor unknown . The importance of networking , AWACS and EW is not something that came from this conflict- it was always known .

Though what the west *will* learn is not to trust any Indian journalist ever lol.

CorneliusTheIdolator

Isn’t India’s refusal to perform SEAD and refusing to first target military installations for the sake of avoiding a major escalation a huge factor in perceived losses?

Pakistan had plenty of time to prepare for any Indian strike, and Indian fighters were sent into prepared defences, so, this conflict was not in any way indicative of either the rafale or the Indian military in an actual conflict.

Ok_Calendar7116

You will learn how to distinguish nationalities online. Those who talk about air battles are Pakistani and people from other countries, and those who talk about airbase and ground strikes are Indians. No surprise that Pakistan and India wants to talk about narrative that beneficial to them, but it’s interesting the global narrative aligned more with Pakistan. 

1. Air battle is inherently more interesting than striking ground targets, because air assets are most propaganday things in any country’s arsenal, leading to their loss becomes the most visible topic. 

2. Air battles themselves are rare in modern ages, and US, France, China is watching closely for intelligence. For India, this is true as well. The most priced thing for them is the PL-15 missile debris, a few holes in runway and collapsed buildings are just propaganda face points.

loned__

A barrage of missiles will wreck your airbases, something China has plenty of to counter US airbases

Usual-Ad-4986

You can learn to put some fucking respect to the PLA name

defl3ct0r

With as little information about the event and with the sample size of one, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it all. There are so many things that could go wrong in any singular engagement, that it's difficult to say that a system as complex as a fighter jet is now good/bad because of it. When it comes to modern air combat that is a nightmarish web of technologies, human factors such as training and countless other potential points of failure.

Single Rafale being downed could be explained by any of the following and more: Differences in training, maintenance, interconnection with third support systems, issues with communication and coordination, unexpected weather/terrain conditions causing a blindspot with one of the numerous technologies involved, design flaws of the plane itself etc. All jet fighters are fickle and overengineered by nature, with systems stacked on top of systems that don't have great error tolerances even with text book perfect maintenance standards.

In general, when it comes to jet fighter era air engagements something not going wrong would be the rarity. Things going wrong don't always end up in a downed plane, but especially when it comes to these one-off skirmishes where a lot of people are doing things in a real combat setting for the first time - all these factors can easily stack up and lead to visible plunders where one of them would not be enough to end in a loss, but three or four of them together would. Fighter jets of all types and origin fall down quite routinely during training exercises etc even when performed by nations we know for a fact know what they are doing regarding the technology, training and maintenance.

Rugged and simple jet fighter is almost an oxymoron. Even the relatively simple and robust ones are finicky over engineered princesses one needs to constantly pamper and even then they will sometimes randomly throw a hissy fit and fall apart without warning. Thanks to the nature of the technology itself. One really needs a comprehensive dataset to draw statistical conclusions from it all, which often isn't possible until there is a large scale war with dozens of losses.

Technically a bit about the effectiveness of kill-chains and datalinks. But to my knowledge there’s no evidence for India actually using air-to-air missiles which is an extremely important factor in analyzing this engagement. Little can be gauged about missile performance but PL-15s being generally capable of intercepting modern aircraft (not even the effectiveness for lack of accurate information on launch parameters, amount of ammunition dispensed and energy state of the aircraft intercepted).
Did I miss anything in the flood of misinformation and propaganda by both sides?

Live_Menu_7404

fearless truck marvelous nose automatic middle sip spotted rinse fanatical

 *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev/home)*

Do not trust the data of chinese weapons in western/russian games, they are wrong.

CureLegend

They are definitely very interested in how the large defense formation was formed and how there was no friendly fire amongst them. Not publicized but AMRAAM boys and gals are very happy with another kill

DemonLordRoundTable

1. In a near peer conflict, drones will not win you the war.
2. It's possible for 2 nuclear countries to have short conventional conflict with clearly defined objectives without any significant risk of MAD.
3. It's important to understand the conflict beyond the brand of jet shot down. If Pakistani airforce using Chinese equipment was really that effective to have completely routed the Indians on night of 7-8th May, why were they unable to stop drone strikes on 8-9th, and airstrikes (Rafale - scalp and Sukhoi 30 - Brahmos) on 9th-11th May across several of their airbases (which resulted in several aircrafts loss on the ground). Did they run out of PL15s on the first day?

the_good_indian

Pakistanis are legit just spamming this sub with ChatGPT analysis and Chinese money. Pretending to ask questions out of curiosity as military enthusiasts while preloaded with Paki propaganda.

Damn ! No matter what Paki military accomplishments are, they definitely are shockingly good at propaganda.

chefexecutiveofficer

When u compare budget, population and quality. Paks the pound for pound champion

No_Doctor_219

AwarenessNo4986

That not how u compare military strength...

Mystery-Snack

This just proves how if a full on war happens both sides will have a massive number of deaths it will be a loss for both countries and humanity. Also our army is blessed with the fact that they are not afraid of death and majority of Pakistani men are also ready to fight and embrace martyrdom. Can’t say that about India

FAT-OOF

These numbers mean very little in the real world. 

Pakistani military has developed an in-house armed complex and capabilities on a very small budget, which is very impressive. Pakistan is on track to become an arms dealer in the region, something India long ago tried but hasn't succeeded so far. 

Example: India tried selling Tejas to African states but failed miserably. However, Pakistan has sold JF17 to African states.

India and even European nations could not pull this off with their huge military budgets. 

Pakistan has helped China and Turkey develop their military programs by providing them with real time battle experience. The JF17 and Turkey's drone program were developed with war veteran Pakistani pilots. 

Pakistan's military equipment is mostly in-house and completely integrated while India has problems integrating NATO tech with Russian tech. 

Pakistan's missile program is one of the best and most accurate in the world. India's missile program is kind of shaky. 

India relies on American, Israeli, and European support in the war giving rise to logistical problems. Pakistan relies on China for support meaning very little logistics problems and China is in the neighborhood. India can be placed under a blockade from all sides. 

And don't even get started on the black market network that Pakistan developed during the nuclear program days. You will see even North Korea participating in the war and many other countries through different channels.

hashtaq2

I wish Allah Grant us a General like Khalid Bin waleed RA , we would be invincible

Sajidullahbaig

Look at the size difference of both countries too. India has troops all across the country so even if an all-out war broke out between both countries, not all of these troops would take part in it.

molecules7

I think morale can make the biggest difference.
WAR has always been one of the core part of Islamic history.

omii71

Bro, update your numbers for Pakistan; the figures are outdated.

Total_Commercial5347

Puzzleheaded-Sand883

AbdurRahmanSaeed

It also matters what that equipment is. India doesn't have f'16s I think.

AstaraArchMagus

this isnt a fair comparison since unlike india most of our troops are battle tested in either Waziristan or other tribal areas/afghan boarder and UN peace keeping missions we are the 4th largest contributor and unlike indian samosas our airforce is also one of the best and most professional in the word as we have seen time and again my only problem with our army is the navy or the lack there of I personally would rather us have submarines then a pure surface fleet

ReaperPlaysYT

In most categories they are twice or 2.5 times us

Ok-Appearance-1652

[Pakistan do not have any Destroyers](https://www.wdmmw.org/pakistan-navy.php). They are all frigates. There are 9 of them in total.

YearEightyEight

Man. I’ve been under rocket attack but like in war. Something about just chilling on your bike and watching the booms. Crazy. 

I hate this. 

Practical-Pickle-529

Probably a bit pedantic, but no one has declared war yet. So, at the minute it’s a squabble.

ImABrickwallAMA

JUST IN - Pakistan has "started the process of retaliation" against India's missile strikes — Samaa TV.

trippy_toads

Looks like things are getting too spicy for the pepper.

Jonas_Venture_Sr

Gosh darn that weak Biden leadership.

/s

RegattaJoe

From CNN;

“Our actions have been focused, measured and non-escalatory in nature. No Pakistani military facilities have been targeted. India has demonstrated considerable restraint in selection of targets and method of execution,” the statement added.

And

"Pakistan will respond to it at a time and place of its own choosing,” Pakistani military spokesperson Ahmed Sharif Chaudhry told Geo TV. “This heinous provocation will not go unanswered.”

WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IF TRUMP WAS PRESI.....WAIT.....

yamers

Why tf are they fighting? I mean- they’ve always detested each other. But why tf now?

Emotional-Change-722

PrometheanSwing

[This kid is almost grown up now...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8HhZlu5DrU)

LBC1109

As a Pakistani it's always sad to see the strings both our militaries and politicians pull to make an intense feeling that war is just on the doorstep while sacrificing a couple hundred just to earn more war money.  
May these conflicts end and we both live in harmony.  
Nobody wants their houses to be bombarded like that in either of our countries.

Pillstyr

Is this the start to the US China Cold War?

slowlongdeath

Trump:  This is Bidens fault. C h I n a   better not get involved or the US will raise tariffs 280%.

Beautiful-Salary-555

It seems both countries' leaders have decided that a war is a good way to distract their people from their daily mismanagement and incompetence.

Jealous_Chance115

suchet_supremacy

Do you know what the word 'official' means, dumbass?


There will be no war... unless Pakistan is really stupid and retaliates.

Anim8rFromOuterSpace

I'm guessing it'll be smaller conflicts.. not a full blown war.. unlike say.. Myanmar.

Dear_Natural6370

So a couple of missile strike makes a war but almost a million soldiers invading another country for years makes it a "special operation"? /S

evoc2911

FrozenBee44

Narwhal_IceCold

What are they striking if not military targets?

Edit: disregard, I misunderstood. They didn't attack Pakistani military but targeted terrorist infrastructure

SeraphiM0352

good god, that sent chills down my spine 😨

AnthonyGSXR

jjrocks2000

This would have never happened if Trump was President.

bennythegiraffe

They do this every 5 years. This is literally just a Tuesday.

ExpertCatJuggler

No it hasn’t. There was only several dozen dollars in damage dealt. Relax

Border skirmishes or did someone come out and it ?

Stanf_63

This never would’ve happened if I were prez.

Reasonable-Collar-69

YVR_Coyote

I don't think it's gonna escalate any further. What do you guys think?

JohnWick2808

Content_Watch_2392

This wouldn't have happened if Joe Biden was President. #FDT

JustAnotherHooyah

BaloothaBear85

RootbeerninjaII

As far as I know this kind of skirmishes are a periodic issue in the Pakistan-Indo border. Sometimes are just light weapons firing, sometimes heavy rounds involved.

Altruistic_Fee661

Huh? This is a fairly regular occurrence. Your title is hyperbolic clickbait.

Luckygecko1

That’s an old video of a tanker blowing up

Express-Row-1504

Someone legit said

7-1-1 vs 9-1-1

💀💀💀💀😭😭😭😭💀💀💀

Deadshadow84

The one who's benefiting is China. They wanted instability in India and they are getting it. Bought Bangladesh and Pakistan and making them do their dirty work.

Practical-Ice-8597

DamnGoodFries

That’s what? About two billion people affected? 

The scale of the region is bonkers.

India had what,.. 900 million registered voters in their last election?! Can’t fathom.

woswoissdenniii

Shame 5hey couldn't wait until GTA 6 is released to go to war.

I don't know what to think. I don't trust they would stop to think of the world, we see the first full on nuclear war.

No_Restaurant566

when is Trump gonna blame Biden for this one?? where is he when the world needs him most?

picnik07

India has hit terrorist camps and bases in POK earlier too. There will be no escalation. 
MOD even live telecasted the reason and mapping of specific targets. A must watch for anyone interested.

The only thing new here is hitting terrorists bases deep inside Pakistani territory and the use of cruise missiles and drones.

doctor_anku

They have been doing this for many years next week they’ll get revenge

Possible_Win_1463

Rob3D2018

No_Tangelo805

So I'm not seeing an actual declaration of war just obvious outrage at the terrorist attack, retaliation, and counter-retaliation.

Am I missing something?

Wenuven

The self-proclaimed Muslim protector Marshal Munir was able to successfully salvage not only his position but also Get an extension for some time. It's a win for the the army , successfully revamping their image again. 

A big win for the army but a lose for the Pakistani society.

romeoomustdie

A bright star shimmered above the quiet lake, reflecting softly in rippling water.

Perdix_Icarus

This was probably the end goal. It’s not unheard of historically for countries that are struggling to wage a war to rally home support. The Argentine dictatorship did precisely this during the Falklands war. 

That said: pretty damned high risk game everyone played. This wasn’t to far from becoming an all out war. And after that, it could easily have escalated.

mahavirMechanized

Its the addage of - "to make yourself look more powerful you need an enemy"

Bob_Spud

Looking at Western commentary on this conflict what strikes me is that India is subjected to significantly more scrutiny and negativity than Pakistan, which is essentially a de-facto dictatorship and one of the least free countries in the world.

American and European political commentators and journalists breathlessly debate about how the conflict may have been 'stoked' by India's strongman leader to reinforce his own popularity. The reality is that 2025 is a lull period for Indian elections, with no major elections for at least 6 months. So if Modi really had to orchestrate any of this, he'd have waited till December at the least.

On the other hand Pakistan's military leaders receive a much clearer benefit from this, because they're finally able to rally public support around themselves after 2+ years of unending protests over their treatment of the country's ousted Prime Minister Imran Khan and his party. Now Imran Khan has been virtually forgotten and Army Chief Asim Munir, who was previously quite unpopular, is being seen as the savior of the nation overnight.

1-randomonium

I comment on this in my blogpost on Op Sindhoor.   
[https://rpdeans.blogspot.com/2025/05/operation-sindhoor-what-we-dont-realise.html](https://rpdeans.blogspot.com/2025/05/operation-sindhoor-what-we-dont-realise.html)

I have written this to address some of the geopolitics around Operation Sindoor, combat disinformation and answer questions frequently raised on forums like this.  
After going through various reports of the actual action, I have linked the two I find most credible - Air Marshal Bedi, who is the only analyst to have actually flown fighters and handled air defence at a senior level (linked with his permission) and Tom Cooper, probably the world's leading writer on modern air combat, who has an outside perspective.

I look a the widening gap between India and Pak, explain why, as in the past, Pakistan took a reckless gamble, why the op had to end when it did and what happens next.

Dean_46

After the election fiasco, the train-jacking incident in Balochistan and a failed economy, literally the only thing that could have changed the narrative for now would be a confrontation with India.

hinterstoisser

maybe India missed a trick by not agreeing to a neutral investigation. 

Maybe next time Modi should avaoid a knee jerk reaction and think things through. 

Not everything is a Bollywood movie.

qsmrf56

Always playing the victim card. They have internalized the trauma of being ruled by outsiders for the past millenium and turned it into the biggest insecurity on the planet.

Jade_Rook

Military tensions between India and Pakistan have escalated, with discussions surrounding military operations and preparedness.

India-Pakistan Military Tensions

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Public Sentiment Summary

Highlighted Comments

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What the people want